The New Notion Club Archives
The New Notion Club Archives


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the overall look...

Hi there! I have noticed that you are much more acquanted with html and the wikisystem than i am.So far i have been quite happy with keeping the wiki simple and minimalist, however i did notice that adding the original stub and disambig tags or slideshows does affect the overall look of articles in a way far greater than i had expected... so i would like to ask you if maybe you would like to look for a general skin or colour/graphic pattern for the wiki you think could fit to the overall theme.Are you interested?

Regards --Haerangil (talk) 01:28, May 3, 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I'm honored that you asked, and I'd be happy to do so. I assume you're asking about a background image for the main page? Is there anything in particular you had in mind, or are you leaving that up to me? Also: is there any way for us to communicate privately, such as e-mail?

Thanks, Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 01:47, May 3, 2020 (UTC)

P.S. A quick investigation reveals that I cannot access the necessary tool(s) such as: Special:ThemeDesigner. "You do not have permission to access Theme Designer, for the following reason: The action you have requested is limited to users in one of the groups: Administrators, FANDOM Staff, FANDOM Helpers, Content Volunteers, Wiki Managers, Content Team Members."

well, i just gave you admin rights if that is ok to you.--Haerangil (talk) 03:31, May 3, 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that's great! I'll try not to screw things up too badly…. :-) Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 04:10, May 3, 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your efforts.--Haerangil (talk) 04:12, May 3, 2020 (UTC)

OK, see what you think of these changes, and let me know - you may have to clear your browser's cached data and files to see the new graphics, including favicon). If you're not happy, that's ok, I won't be offended: we can revert with one click, or I keep editing until you're happy. We probably cannot keep the background image by Sampsa Rydman, since he owns it, but this is just for example. Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 06:50, May 3, 2020 (UTC)

I have changed the Top Navigation Bar, since the previous "Community/Blog" entry was utterly useless. We do have a forum, that's never been used, I'd like to add it to the Top Navigation Bar. Thoughts? Also: feedback on the previous changes that I made? Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 13:44, May 5, 2020 (UTC)

Okay so far, except that the top graphic does interfere/overlay a bit with the top right navigationbar.Everything else is quite fine.--Haerangil (talk) 15:48, May 5, 2020 (UTC)

OK I have removed the background graphic for the header/navbar, and added links for the forum. as usual, you may have to refresh the page or even clear browser cache to see the changes. Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 16:17, May 5, 2020 (UTC) P.S. I have formally requested permission to use the map graphic from Sampsa Rydman. We'll see if he reponds....

thank you.I had asked Sampsa Rydman before for general permission to use single graphics or bits of info from single articles from Lindefirion, but i had not asked for permission for any specific graphic or map.--Haerangil (talk) 16:33, May 5, 2020 (UTC)

Yfelwood and Orc mt lair maps

Hi there! I noticed you did upload some maps for a location within Yfelwood... however i could not quite read the maps title, it isn't "optane"? I wanted to add them to the yfelwood article... thx and regards --Haerangil (talk) 04:42, May 4, 2020 (UTC)

The word he uses is "octane", with the "c" reversed: "ↄꜾ". The full title is: "The Yfelwood Oↄtane and Orↄ Movntain Lair". His use of the word "octane" is obscure and "not by the book"; I believe he uses it in the sense of eight (8), since there are 8 standing stones. There are three versions of the map: one B&W, two color of different size/resolution. The files names all start with "Evilwood*" Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 05:00, May 4, 2020 (UTC)

thanks!So i guess he just means "eight stones" then... --Haerangil (talk) 17:57, May 4, 2020 (UTC)


Hello! For your first question Fandom currently does not support private communication. Alternatively Discord is a good way to accomplish that. As for the header colors, in the coding you currently have background:white;. Instead use background:#000000; color:#000 which will change the background and text color to whatever hex code you would like. --awyman13FandomStaff.png (Talk/Work) 10:47, May 17, 2020 (UTC)


Regarding those highlighted new pages, it means that those new pages have not yet been "patrolled". Patrolled means that a user edited the page and marked it as "Patrolled" which is used as an admin tool to show that a page has been reviewed. When an admin creates a page, it is automatically marked as "patrolled", hence why pages you made are not highlighted. --awyman13FandomStaff.png (Talk/Work) 07:15, May 19, 2020 (UTC)

Re: Fonts

To implement a custom font on the wiki, view this tutorial. Also view this thread on some useful information about them. --awyman13FandomStaff.png (Talk/Work) 07:19, May 19, 2020 (UTC)

Re: Another Question

Im not too familiar with those pages but they seem to have been a way to name Wiki back in the day. Due to the theme designer now being the only way to change the name, I'd say those MediaWiki pages no longer serve a purpose. --awyman13FandomStaff.png (Talk/Work) 02:56, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

Re: Disambig

Yes it is possible though AutoWikiBrowser. If you have a bot account set up in AWB you can generate a list of pages under the category Category:Disambiguation and then under the "More" tab there's an option to remove a category. View this tutorial on how to set up AWB. Also view this tutorial on how to set up a bot if the wiki doesn't have one. --awyman13FandomStaff.png (Talk/Work) 02:03, May 23, 2020 (UTC)

Re: Autorefresh

Take a look at this help page. --awyman13FandomStaff.png (Talk/Work) 23:39, May 24, 2020 (UTC)

Re:Community To Do List

The Community To Do List is intended as a replacement of the Community Portal on Special:Community. Special:Community can be found in the Explore tab of the Wiki Navigation. If you delete the to do list then it will blank the lower section of Special:Community. --awyman13FandomStaff.png (Talk/Work) 15:37, May 27, 2020 (UTC)


Hello good sir, I have been trying to find information about this artifact that the Princes of Dol Amroth held. Have you read anything about it? I thought I had read that it does something similar to Cirdan's water bracelets in MERPS, but I am thinking about deleting that page because I can't find anything in regards to the Meledhil so far. I was hoping you had some info about it. Moran half valar (talk) 04:53, June 9, 2020 (UTC)

No, sorry, never heard of it. Have you checked "Havens of Gondor", "Sea-lords of Gondor", and "Treasures of Middle-earth"? Or perhaps it's a 3rd-party invention (i.e.: MERP Fan Modules)? --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 05:25, June 9, 2020 (UTC)
P.S. Or, you could mark it with {{Update}} or {{Citation needed}}.

I have seen it in MERPS Middle Earth Vol 2 Mannish races. So it is there, but I just can't find out what it is. I have been looking in Southern Gondor the People, but I'll try to do what you suggest. Thank you. Moran half valar (talk) 01:50, June 10, 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, it seems that you are correct: I can find no details of it beyond the mention in LoMe Vol.II, p.42, where both Adrahil I & II are listed as "Bearer of Meledhil". The next obvious "bearer" of the item would be Imrahil son of Adrahil II, but his blurb on p.32 does not mention this item. There is no mention of it in "Havens of Gondor" so far as I can see.
IMHO, in the absence of any other description, you are free to create your own interpretation of this item as you see fit - this is a sub-creation wiki! Just keep in mind: "Meledhil" means something like "love of elves" or "dear to elves". --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 02:52, June 10, 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for that friend, I didn't find anything in Southern Gondor the People or the Beacon of Gondor module. So I don't think there are any stats on this item at all. Since you understand the translation--I believe that a 100th level water law ability is too powerful for an item--and as you said it means "Dear to Elves." So I am not sure what I could do to make up something that adheres to that name. A mystical jewel perhaps that does something. I really don't know. Moran half valar (talk) 15:37, June 10, 2020 (UTC)

Re: Infobox

Seems there may have been an error when it was ported to a portable infobox. Ill revert it back and take a look again on the migration draft. --awyman13FandomStaff.png (Talk/Work) 02:46, June 18, 2020 (UTC)

Northmen of the Second Age

Hey Hlingler,

I was wondering if you knew of any tribal northmen and bear-men of the misty mountains that lived in the second age. Does MERPS have any named characters that ruled the northmen at this time? Let me know if you know of anything. Moran half valar (talk) 05:01, June 22, 2020 (UTC)

No, sorry, I do not. By definition, the Beornings only originated in the late Third Age, after Beorn their founder united them. Certainly, there must have been Men residing in the Upper Anduin Vales/Misty Mountain Vales in the Second Age, and also there may very well have been Men before Beorn who had the skin-changer ability - perhaps some of his ancestors. But records of the Second Age concerning Rhovanion are scarce or non-existent, and I know of none. You are free to create your own history(ies)! Cheers, --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 03:05, June 23, 2020 (UTC)
MERP wanted Beornings available in their 1640 timeline, so they created the Beijabar... it does make SOME sense hence there must have been a tribe at a time from which Beorning originated.Tolkien gives two small hints that he may have descended from eitherbthe great bears, the unnamed "men of the misty mountains" or the Rohirrim or possubly all three of it.Gandalf never specified when those "misty mountain men" lived but gives a hint by presuming they were driven out ofbtheirbold homes by the giants.Whenever the giants came to the mm... imguess it may havenbern after the fall of Angband, so there we have a possible tribe for the late first/early second age.MERP and AnnavArquette write some few 4hings 8n the Beijabar... but i was never very happy with that.

--Haerangil (talk) 01:53, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Elder Days CIvil War

I am just curious as to what everyone thinks. Evil constantly turns in upon itself. Their true loyalties are out of fear. So my question is this, what held Angband united after Morgoth was captured and brought to Valinor? I mean, I would have thought since Angband would have been under Sauron's command, this would have come into conflict with the Captain of Angband, Gothmog.

So my questions is this, what held Angband together, and could there have potentially been a civil war or a stand off between Gothmog and Sauron? Moran half valar (talk) 18:13, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi guy: "Evil constantly turns in upon itself" is to some extent wishful thinking. While fundamentally and theoretically true, it does not always manifest in the way we might like. So far as we know, *nothing* held Angband together during Melkor's absence (but we may guess that perhaps Sauron did so? If so, he certainly was more powerful than any Balrog… but a "power struggle" is not out of the question). We also have no evidence that Angband remained "united" during that absence - in fact, it seems to me that Melkor's servants (including Balrogs) hid themselves in fear during all that time. As empirical evidence, look at what happened with the Nazi's after WWII: any one that could fled into hiding in South America or elsewhere. No unity there, just (undeniably) fear - but in many cases no justice either. -Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 17:57, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Urbanisation in Eriador

Hi there!

I provisionally started to redo Eriador according to OH 18... I am now convinced I had some earlier map or different version and was not totally off.In fact think i have the older version still on my disc.


you see, it seems he´s been playing around with the placenames and locations quite a bit.He also changed a lot of locations/regions from published MERP material... he always has his reasons, but i can´t say i´m quite happy with this either... now what to do? :( --Haerangil (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

found one of the older maps I must have used to find the locations on the big map:


didn´t mention the author, but i suspect somebody of the fanmodules group maybe? So seemingly Thomas did rearange names and locations from other, older material for his article.I also am not very happy with some of the placenames he uses... from an elven language perspective. now what to do?--Haerangil (talk) 23:32, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

he almost certainly used Sampsa Rydman's maps from Lindefirion or say he took placenames from Sampsa's maps and rearanged them...--Haerangil (talk) 23:51, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

What a mess! 😊

  • I hope you mean OM13, not OH18. We don't need more conflicting sources.
  • The root cause of the confusion is Thomas Morwinsky's essay in OM13: he does not use the existing ICE MERP maps, but uses his own simplified drawings of Eriador, which deviate significantly from the ICE MERP maps. Also: you are correct: he clearly notes that a previous version of the essay was published 10 years before the OM13 article. I have not seen it, but it may deviate further from the ICE stuff. I know nothing of his sources. Note that I am not dismissing the hard work and value of the essay Population and Urbanization in Eriador.
  • The map that you found above (File:Arthedainr-urbanisation.jpg) seems to follow OM13, but only includes Arthedain (Cardolan and Rhudaur omitted), and some sites are missing. Others sites appear to have been added to the map by someone, to try to match OM13 maps. Names and borders of fiefs/counties deviate somewhat from OM13.
  • The map that you found above by Sampsa Rydman introduces yet more deviations.

In order to rectify this issue, I recommend that we:

  1. choose one map to be the "master", and
  2. the easiest solution is to declare the exiting map File:Arthedainplacenames.jpg to be that master map; however this means that we deviate completely from the OM13 locations, which will lead to confusion in future just like it is now;
  3. create a revised map, preferably based on MERP maps, which attempts to reconcile locations with OM13; this will be a major project;
  4. we could use some other map(s) (such as Lindëfirion) as master, but this will just introduce even more deviation and confusion.

-Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 14:20, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

I am always hesitant to change too much from published MERP material,on the other hand this is exactly what i do ALL the time.I think Thomas articles are possibly the most up to date and best researched work on the topic, the Other minds project is what comes closest to a MERP 3.0. So yes, i guess i'll have to accept OM13 (sorry for the misread above i was in a hurry) as the master version on which everything should be based.One problem i still DO have is: Thomas notoriously dislikes other licensed works such as LOTRO and ME SBG and always prefers to widely ignore these works and alternative versions.I always chose to do the opposite and reconcile diverging versions as well as possible.--Haerangil (talk) 15:27, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
i believe a mastermap could be made and would be the best way to go.I have a label-less version of the MERP amalgation just for this.It is low quality but should still serve its purpose as an illustrative overview map.Yet i feel such a mastermap cannot be created right at this point.At first all articles and name forms should be finished and corrected.Or otherwise we'll just have another messy map with obsolete names and labels.--Haerangil (talk) 15:30, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with everything you say. Almost: I think that some kind of base map - a "working copy" - is needed, to visualize and accurately locate sites. The first step would be to reconcile OM13 with this base map. I would also add that, while Mr. Morwinsky may dislike and ignore non-MERP sources, we need not do so - so long as they can be integrated/reconciled. -Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 17:24, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

well for the beginning i think we can use the arthedain map that i made, plus i will also add provisional maps for Cardolan, Rhudaur and Angmar to cover the placenames from said article.Then maybe Gondor and Rohan, but as i said only the names / locatiins from,the OM articles, nothing more, cause at the moment i cannot do such a major task.--Haerangil (talk) 18:37, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Which file do you mean? The above File:Arthedainr-urbanisation.jpg? I think that File:Arnor2.jpg would be the best "clean slate". -Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 19:01, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

P.S.: I now see another major problem: OM13 significantly deviates from MERP sources as to the borders of Arnorian/Arthedain noble fiefs and associated locations (e.g.: Bareketta, Tarmabar). Other than canonical sites, the MERP maps give "hard locations" for a number of invented sites such as these, most of which OM13 relocates. -Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 19:16, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
that's what i meant, already mentioned before.It all comes down to completely rearranging Eriador.My master map is now in TA 1400.I will upload as soon as i have incorporated all OM 13 locations.--Haerangil (talk) 20:40, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Here it is:

The Master-map.All of the locations and lands from Thomas last article should be in it.Yet i can´t say i am happy with this.Not all his location changes make sense to me, some seem random, especially his juggling around with placenames. Also i am very unhappy with some placenames... even those that seem to be workable Sindarin often look more like personal names rather than placenames.A lot of names i don´t even know what language they´re supposed to be... Westron?Eriedaic? The Hillman and Dunael is quite a mess... names of welsh sea-gods for Hillman tribal countries and worse...(plus i had to reduce quality for image size...) --Haerangil (talk) 03:55, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I must admit that I was not familiar with the OM13 article until recently. But now, after having seen it… I share your concerns, and more. A study of population is valid, and the general information can stand; however, I see little value in the (significant) relocation of sites, especially major ones. It simply creates contradiction and confusion, without adding value. Plus it renders all MERP maps obsolete. In this case, I defer to your judgement: shall we follow the "canonical" MERP maps, or this "adjusted" map above (File:Eriador-urbanisation4-small.jpg)? -Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 15:01, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

as far as i value Thomas' works i see little need to rewrite the complete MERP canon.I really do not wish to contradict that many maps people have made abd used for decades...

I am willing to include some if his work and correct shortcomings of MERP and other works, but i am now definitely against reworking the complete thing.I'd say it would be most reasonable to decide by every article which version makes most sense.We cannadress contradictions under "notes" if necessary... --Haerangil (talk) 15:41, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

So be it. Unfortunately, that decision renders your hard work on the map above as mostly void, since it erases or moves many identified/named sites. I therefore think that we should use File:Arnor2.jpg as a base. -Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 20:51, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

yeah, but the map can still be used as a reference to correct contradictions, so it's not completely useless, though so far we probably only can use snippets from it.I've put the contradicting articles under "needs to be done" and already started a comparison between the new and old locations... will take some time to do all this, but still better and more reasonable than to abandon everything and di everything anew because one obscure article...--Haerangil (talk) 21:09, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Recent Activity

Hey HLingler,

How do I view the recent activity pages for the wiki? Ever since the new layout, I can't find where to go to see all the edits. Moran half valar (talk) 20:09, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
The page you want is: Special:RecentChanges. The spelling is important. You can type it into the search field, or edit the URL. There is also a shortcut at the uppermost right of all pages; the icon looks like this: √\– . Then there are a number of filters available on that special page.-Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 20:44, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Hlingler, this helps a lot. I don't like how the new format highlights everything blue, now I can't see what needs to be finished. Moran half valar (talk) 19:56, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

The term "Hobbit"

Hi! I have recently had a strange thought: do we know anything about when the term "Hobbit" came into use? I usually use Anglo-Saxon only from the times of Frumgar on and Gothic for the times before him when the Northmen still have names like Vidugavia and Marhari and also do correct MERP names this way... but JRRT was a bit inconsistent at this... he uses some hobbit names for earlier times too I think when "Anglo-Saxon" or "Rohirric" did not officially yet exist (same with some "Old Norse" firms he uses as early as second age...). So... at ca. 1640 or before... did the Hobbits already call themselves "Hobbits" or should I use a more neutral "Halflings" or even a reconstructed gothic form instead? Opinion?--Haerangil (talk) 00:31, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Oohhh… what an interesting question. I've never considered it, nor can I recall ever reading such a discussion, scholarly or otherwise. However, here are my thoughts, IMHO: in-universe, the endonym hobbit is expressly stated to be cognate with Rohirric (represented by Anglo-Saxon) hol-bytla = "hole-builder/dweller". Therefore, it must have acquired *before* the Hobbits left the Vales of Anduin (when they lived close to the Éothéod and/or other ancestors of the Rohirrim). Note however that Frumgar lived from T.A. 1940-2001, while the Hobbits had left Rhovanion well before this time (not later than about 1300). In any case, regardless of whether the word hobbit derived from Rohirric (Anglo-Saxon) hol-bytla, Old Rhovanian hula-buthlias, or Western Rhovanian hol-budlas, I believe that it's fair to assume that it evolved into its final form hobbit long *before* the settling of the Shire in T.A. 1640 (and by which time they had long abandoned their former language). Of course, the Westron term Halfling is appropriate to any time and place when and where Westron was spoken. -Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 19:08, 1 September 2021 (UTC) far i am inclined to judge Hobbit and Holbytla as parralel developments out of an earlier form, maybe hula-buthlias.I'll give it a thought or two.thx!--Haerangil (talk) 02:14, 2 September 2021 (UTC)