Hello, and Request Advice

Hello Hareangil:

My main motivation to join this wiki is to collect, in one place, as much detailed info on third-party MERP resources as possible, motivated by my own long searches for such info; and to contribute to the general effort. Accordingly, I would like to add some resources that do not fit into the already defined categories: Campaigns (extended settings covering multiple Adventures, e.g.: the Guild Companion's Minas Brethil campaign), Realms (settings detailing regions but without specific Adventures, e.g.: MERP Fan Modules' Kun Anyam - The Spice Streets), and so on. But I am hesitant to make such major changes without discussion first. Please advise.

Thanks, Vince (Hlingler)

well of course this place is just for that, but i see what you mean.Such massive addon of couse can not be but on just one single page or article but has to be split up into the existing patterns.Maybe one single page with the campaign or module title and an overview with interwikis to the single articles (Character, Place,... etc.) Would be the best option.What do you think?

--Haerangil (talk) 04:49, March 22, 2020 (UTC)

The least disruptive way would probably be to add a page "[MERP] Campaigns by 3rd Parties" (in categories 'Games' and 'Role-Playing') and link to it from the "Adventures" page. There is already a 'Realms' category, so a page "[MERP] Realms by 3rd Parties" could be added? Let me think on this….
A separate fanmodules category could be possible for example.For campaigns perhaps this could be a pattern? Middle-Earth Down Under: An Antipodean Campaign

--Haerangil (talk) 06:20, March 22, 2020 (UTC)

Generally i think Adventures (List),Adventures in Middle-Earth by various Authors and Scenarios should be sufficient as categories for new content.Of course everything must be properly interlinked with the existing articles/Pages --Haerangil (talk) 06:33, March 22, 2020 (UTC)

I see that you added a new category "Campaign". Looks good to me —— I think I see how to proceed: simply leave the existing pages (Adventures, Scenarios, etc.) as generic, and add new content as required even from different game systems, plus a new page "Campaigns" and other new pages as required for more specific content. P.S. How do you add your details and time-stamp to these edits? Is there a more effective way to communicate than this? Thanks, V

Well i use two of this - and three of this~
I think i'm usually quick to read and answer on this page, also it keeps it open for other possinle contributors to read and comment too.--Haerangil (talk) 04:07, March 23, 2020 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Long_Fell and respond. Thanks, V

Lather, rinse, repeat. Thanks, V

I've noticed one (relatively minor) problem on this wiki: the source of the material presented, especially images. I recognize many map clips and artwork from ICE MERP sources, but that's only because I am already familiar with it; but I'm left wondering where much of the other stuff originated. This is important because, in order to properly interpret the material, it's source must be known. Related: how to edit the info on images, including source and license. Thanks, V

Yes i try to bring many different interpretations of Middle-Earth into concordence, which is sometimes very difficult.I use sometimes maps based on ICE maps which i have edited, so they differ from the original versions in the game books quite a bit, some other maps are based on MECCG maps which i have also edited, and some maps are snippets from LOTRO and aümany maps i made myself.Other contributors have also added maps they made themselves or found, i often do not know exactly where they do come from.I have a huge collection of middle-earth maps on my hard disc, some come from fanmodules, some from other sources, of some i do not even know the authors.When i make a new map i usually try to consult as many maps as i can find.Still sometimes mistakes can happen... but i try my best.--Haerangil (talk) 20:38, March 28, 2020 (UTC)

Please see: File_talk:Arthedainplacenames.jpg. Thanks, V Hlingler (talk) 22:59, March 29, 2020 (UTC)

Hi. I have been trying to clean up Uncategorized Categories, since they do not appear as suggestions in the Search Box, nor in the Category Tree, but that special page is faulty: only two pages are listed; so I have been manually spot-checking the Category List. Don't know how to alert the Wiki management to report the faulty page. Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 02:47, April 1, 2020 (UTC)

I'll check that one up too..--Haerangil (talk) 03:39, April 1, 2020 (UTC)

Sonofthewild (talk) 10:59, April 2, 2020 (UTC) Can we find You Haerangil on Facebook ? BTW: mine divagations about localistaion of Orod Elu were reposted by ITF  (International Tolkien Fellowship) on Fb :) 

No i'm sorry Haerangil has no fb page.I'm totally ok with the revised location of Orod thingol, if we can correct flaws of previous publications here i'm totally fine with it.--Haerangil (talk) 11:51, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

In the course of revising a MERP Fan Module The Evil in House Aludor, I have run into serious conflicts between the ICE "MERP canon" (specifically: #8302 Minas Ithil) and Lindëfirion. These conflicts are extremely complex and would be very difficult to reconcile. Both are widely used on this wiki. How do you want to handle this issue? Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 20:32, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

hmm, good question, i have myself often cited lindefirion on this wiki, but i have also changed some names and other content of which i thought it was against the canon.So all in all Lindefirion is a very cool campaign, but still just yet somebody's private setting and version.I guess all in all i'd still give MERP the preference where it is not in conflict with the tolkien canon.--Haerangil (talk) 21:14, April 7, 2020 (UTC)
OK, I'll proceed accordingly.-VJS

Is there a way that we can automatically add a timestamp to each page, right below the line "Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted", showing the time and date of last revision, like they do on Wikipedia? I think this would be helpful. Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 06:33, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

i'm not sure.If there is thenninhaven't figured out yet...--Haerangil (talk) 06:53, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

Hi Haerangil: do you have a policy, or suggestions, on adding categories to images? Only "Maps", or more? Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 05:44, April 28, 2020 (UTC)

Hi there! Does this Pictures help? --Haerangil (talk) 05:50, April 28, 2020 (UTC)

Yes that certainly helps. Thanks. What about additional categories, such as "MERP"(RPG) or "Mordor"(land/region) or "Character"(other)? Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 07:04, April 28, 2020 (UTC)

well i have not found them very useful so far, 8r in other terms i did not need them.--Haerangil (talk) 07:50, April 28, 2020 (UTC)

Good: that saves a lot of checking and typing. Meanwhile…

  • What started as a minor edit of the article Tharbad turned into a major re-write. Could you please take the time to review and double-check it? If I made any major errors, could we please discuss them?
  • I just noticed that ICE MERP names the region as "Ededhwaith", while the Tolkien "canon" uses "Enedwaith". Do you know the reason for this discrepancy?

Thanks, Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 04:02, April 29, 2020 (UTC)

Sure! As far as I know Enedhwaith was the spelling JRRT actually preferred and used in his annotations for Pauline Baynes and "of dwarves and men" but CJRT corredted in in unfi ished Tales back to Enedwaith to stay in concordence with the pub LOTR, i think he later admitted this as a mistake or at last discussed some regrets.--Haerangil (talk) 07:53, April 29, 2020 (UTC)

I'm removing the Category "Stubs" from all pages so categorized, because (a) it's a duplicate of "Article stubs" and (b) therefore won't show up on the report(s). Then we can delete it. Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 03:48, April 30, 2020 (UTC)

EDIT: The same could go for "Category:Disambiguation" vs {{Disambig}}, but since there are over 1100 pages in the manual category so fixing that would be a monumental task. Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 05:12, April 30, 2020 (UTC)
yeah, comes from i time when i was still not fully understanding how a wikisystem works and in the end i just kept going with it...--Haerangil (talk) 09:05, April 30, 2020 (UTC)

I am hoping you can help me out: what is the name of the road shown on this map: File:Ancosabras.png? My best guess is "Men Drûg", which would make sense, but it's so hazy, and I have no better map. Thanks Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 15:04, May 1, 2020 (UTC)

luckily i still have the original maps at home! It is the "Men Drûn".--Haerangil (talk) 23:58, May 1, 2020 (UTC)
Yes! Thank you! Now to decipher what that's supposed to mean…. P.S. Can you upload a higher-quality image of the same (or larger) area? Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 03:18, May 2, 2020 (UTC)
well not at the moment... I'll have to scan them first, but i'll see what i can do.The big map amalgation must be co pletely redone i guess, much of it is of too bad quality and it misses details i have added on some 8f the smaller maps...--Haerangil (talk) 03:23, May 2, 2020 (UTC)

I have been trying, where I consider it practical, to consolidate redundant categories - usually two which are singular/plural: Realm/Realms, Drûg/Drughu, Kingdom/Kingdoms, etc., etc.; or spelling variations (upper/lowercase). I default to the plural, since by definition the category contains multiple members. Your opinion? Thanks, Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 18:44, May 5, 2020 (UTC)

that seems reasonable.I believe many of the double categories were created by default by autocorrect not working or misplacing terms.since i started working mostly from my tablet autocorrect doesn't do that anymore...

But there is one exception! Drûg and Drughu... i use drûg for a character/person and drughu for the culture/people.Drûg is a subcategory of drughu and hildor just as dunadan is a subcategory of dunedain and hildor... i tried to explain ealier. --Haerangil (talk) 19:41, May 5, 2020 (UTC)

Aha! I see your point. OK, maybe our policy should be: one category normally, plural (Lands, Realms, Kingdoms, etc. etc. etc.), but TWO for persons/peoples (Drûg/Drughu, Dúnadan/Dúnedain) where singular is to group persons, plural is to group items related to the race/culture/people in general. But then categories "Drûg", "Dúnadan", etc. become nothing more than a list of individuals. Spelling is also important: realm and Realm are two different categories. I default to first letter uppercase. Once a decision is made, we should note all this stuff on The_New_Notion_Club_Archives:Manual_of_Style. Thanks, Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 00:21, May 6, 2020 (UTC) P.S. Also, I would default to using the endonyms when naming persons/peoples categories, since this is by definition always correct: Drûg/Drughu, NOT: Drû, Drû-folk, Drúath, Drúedain, Drûg-folk, Drûgs, Drúin, Oghor-hai, Púkel-men, Rógin, Rú, Rúatani, Wild Men of the Woods, Woses, nor any other name(s)/term(s). That make sense? :-)

yes, lists of individuals was my intention.I always found that helpful when searching fpr a character from a distinct group/people.Yes i know... spelling IS a problem... --Haerangil (talk) 00:25, May 6, 2020 (UTC)


Sonofthewild (talk) 07:41, September 9, 2019 (UTC) Hi, I wonder if exists full Arda map or other regional maps that are similar to this one (coming from the same source/map maker tool) posted on 2013 in Ormal article:

I'll be glad for reference link or sending it on mine @:

oh! That's one of my own old maps...
You can browse under Category:Maps for more...

these i remember... --Haerangil (talk) 12:12, September 9, 2019 (UTC)

Sonofthewild (talk) 15:01, March 10, 2020 (UTC) Hi, question is to MERP map: does exists any comprhensive index of names (labels) used in MERP map?: For instance I can't decipher first to the north, this labeled one, tributary river of r.Fornen in Thargelion (Di...rnen ... ?)

sadly none that i knew of...

reads like Duornen or Dvornen,or Dunornen/Dunurnen maybe?Anyway i guess the name should be corrected to a real Sindarin form I think, a lot of the Names used in MERP are a real mess...--Haerangil (talk) 16:56, March 10, 2020 (UTC)

Sonofthewild (talk) 08:30, March 12, 2020 (UTC)Font used on MERP maps: what font has been used on MERP maps? (name or link to download)

seems to have been no standard font, I believe Mr. Fenlon created his very own font for his maps.--Haerangil (talk) 11:16, March 12, 2020 (UTC)
they seem to be a variation of the Gaeilge font... --Haerangil (talk) 11:19, March 12, 2020 (UTC)

How to edit

Hey Haerangil,

I don't know how to edit this wiki because I don't know where to get information from, I don't have any sources. Do I have to be an owner of some MERP books or something? I have some on PDF. KingElessar777 (talk) 23:45, September 11, 2019 (UTC)

well i guess it is always nice if you can give references... bit this ain't strictly a rpg wiki on MERP, it is really a subcreation-project...


--Haerangil (talk) 00:05, September 12, 2019 (UTC)

Sonofthewild (talk) 13:40, March 25, 2020 (UTC)How to delete image once uploaded ? (I don't see any delete button anywhere, perhaps it's an issue of granting privileges). sometimes I have to delete what I'm uploading without maintaining newest version (replacing button)

hmm strange, i think users should have permission to delete their own uploads.Cant't you click on the picture and then get to it's page where then there should be delete options under "edit" as well as under "file history"?--Haerangil (talk) 14:53, March 25, 2020 (UTC)
Sonofthewild (talk) 07:43, March 26, 2020 (UTC) 

- under EDIT button , I don't see any option - under arrow drop down menu, I have 3 options: history, replace, talk | under any of them I don't see any deletation function

normally - where should it be? do you have it?

Yeah i have it, so it must be an issue of user rights... --Haerangil (talk) 10:25, March 26, 2020 (UTC)
Sonofthewild (talk) 10:37, March 27, 2020 (UTC) Usage of "Replace imgae" tool tip: when replacing image, mind on file format - file format of newer image has to be the same as the previouselly uploaded image (e.g.: replacing is possible only from JPG to JPG, from PNG to PNG, but not from JPG to any other), in other way you'll receive "MIME file format" error.

Messages to Users

Is there a way to do a mass message for anyone to answer? Moran half valar (talk) 00:21, September 14, 2019 (UTC)

Maybe--Haerangil (talk) 20:44, September 17, 2019 (UTC)

Sonofthewild (talk) 09:11, March 11, 2020 (UTC) Do We don't need a tool to fast messages exchange? - like Fb group or discord channel? It would make thinks easier when comes to asking/answering/reaching a common position on any case ...

hmm... i'd like to solve questions right here on the wiki rather than outside...

i also do not think an fb group would be quicker or more effective in any case.Discord i don't even know about... --Haerangil (talk) 11:45, March 11, 2020 (UTC)


Hi Haerangil, its been a long time, listen, I made a change on the Erkenbrand page. I did a rename for Erkenbrand Drenghorn. Have a look at this link: Let me know what you think.--Spenpiano (talk) 17:27, September 17, 2019 (UTC)

Gudhere Réneward

Should the character Gunnár Renweard be changed to Gudhere Réneward? Is this is more fitting?--Spenpiano (talk) 11:39, September 24, 2019 (UTC)

Personally i don't feel that family, clan or surnames seem to have been a common practice among the Rohirrim.They either used a personal title referring to a deed or feat like Eadig or Ednew or used the name of a renowned ancestor such as Hildeson.Please check again the article on naming:Names.

If a house-name would have been used i think "Gudhere Rénewarding", is posdibly the most likely variant.The same issues are relevant for all rohirrim characters--Haerangil (talk) 11:46, September 24, 2019 (UTC)

Copy that sir--Spenpiano (talk) 11:48, September 24, 2019 (UTC)
They also use placenames like "of Grimslade" to distinct themselves.Or you could simply say "of House Réneward" or "of the Rénewardings" if it's important to you...

please also check your other character names again.--Haerangil (talk) 11:53, September 24, 2019 (UTC)

Oh that's perfect, tell me the names to check?--Spenpiano (talk) 11:56, September 24, 2019 (UTC)
For House Eastanweard, which name should be better? House Eastánward?--Spenpiano (talk) 12:22, September 24, 2019 (UTC)
all of your rohirrim, to be honest☺.I think it should be Eásterneward or Eásternward, if i understand jrrt's rendering of anglosaxon right.By the way, the article on the Rohirrim DOES feature an account on Rohan's clans...--Haerangil (talk) 12:19, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
Here are two sites:

New Lands Characters

In the Scenarios concerning the New Lands, I have Fankil becoming a resident along these New Lands, because he would have brought over the sacrificial ways of the Black Temple to the Lossoth who cross into the New Lands. 

My question here though is this: are there any good powers to challenge him--and maybe persuade other Lossoth to fight against Fankil? 

Many differing tribes of Lossoth (Natives) fought in our real world (which Tolkien's is derived from). So could Earendil the Blessed be a good character? Maybe his wife as well? You do have him listed as finding Greenland and other places, but in the canon it states that he is in the sky. So how do we deal with this? Concerning the canon? Moran half valar (talk) 00:00, September 25, 2019 (UTC)

well... i propose we study the prehistoric settlement of the americas and take it as an example?--Haerangil (talk) 21:39, September 25, 2019 (UTC)

Okay, and if you read my comments above, that is what I was saying. But I was asking what characters could have influenced them. I figure Fankil had to run and teach the Lossoth the art of sacrificing humans to the Dark Lord--but what good character would stand against Fankil? That was my question. Moran half valar (talk) 23:59, September 25, 2019 (UTC)

Also, I don't see how Earendil the blessed could discover and adventure to find these New Lands as they would have had to form after the Second Age, when Numenor sunk--and he is confined to the sky. Moran half valar (talk) 00:20, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

Agreed.Earendil traveled islands which lay between Middle-earth and Aman, he did not even come close to Southernesse or the new Lands.On the characters which may have influenced them... again, i guess they would have to come from thevamericas mythologies and then somehow must be adapted in a fittingvway into JRRT's cosmology!--Haerangil (talk) 05:39, September 26, 2019 (UTC)
allright there are two exceptions:Greenland and Iceland! Earendil definitely visitedvthem in Lost Tales.--Haerangil (talk) 06:07, September 26, 2019 (UTC)


If your wondering, I found Himlingfoe in this wikia site:

Have a look at first. If what you say is true about that name, is there another way to change the name?--Spenpiano (talk) 16:41, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
yeah, somebody made up that name without checking the proper linguistics! Thatvalso happened with MERP and CODA and it happens with a lot fanfic.When i adapt something from such flawed sources and i notice their mistake, then i try to check linguistics and correct it.Linguistics were very important to JRRT.I think if we do subcreation in his worls we owe him to do our best at using the proper linguistics.--Haerangil (talk) 16:59, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
well a "foend" is one wo undertakes or supports...but himming is still a shoe..
"Hem" means border, "Heming" could be a person born on the border... perhaps a clan of supporters from the borderlands could bear a name like "Hemingfoendas"?--Haerangil (talk) 17:03, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
Agreed, do you have good surnames that you might evolve those words into?--Spenpiano (talk) 17:27, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
not really! It always depends if a family name is derived from a name of an ancestor, a place or maybe a title.Hemingfoend, sounds more like a titlevthan a personal name... --Haerangil (talk) 17:32, September 25, 2019 (UTC)


I don't understand Earendil's timeline. Did he discover Greenland and Iceland in the Second/Third Age? If so, how did he get out of the sky? The Silmarillion states that he was confined to the sky in the First Age. So canonically speaking, did he leave the sky to discover these places? Moran half valar (talk) 04:05, October 3, 2019 (UTC)

He ,ustbhave done so before he reached Valinor on his odyssey, of which more is mentioned in lost taley and from which most was cut out in the pubsil.So the green land and the ice-land probably were lands or isles in the western ocean, presumably part of aman or the helcaraxe, in anyway different from our modern Greenland and Iceland, but maybe precursors which became part of planet Earth after the second age..--Haerangil (talk) 12:36, October 3, 2019 (UTC)

images in articles

Hi Haerangil, just to let you know, i wanted to do a switch on the maggot images. Please let me know what you think.--Spenpiano (talk) 13:49, October 4, 2019 (UTC)

It's not that i can't understand anybody to be unhappy with this pic or that pic on the wiki... but i can't simply let anybody change all pics after his own will... everybody will choose his own fav pic, and one does prefer the jackson movies, another one will prefer this or that artist.I chose most pics i chose with a lot of thinking and consideration and often because i wanted to preserve an unknown illustration from a forgotten trading card or rpg book i liked.Often these illustrations were INTENDED to mean another character, but i found they could work perfectly for a totally different character, where they REALLY could inspire ideas to see more behind a character than just a short stub article.So now farmer maggot from the jackson movie is not farmer maggot anymore but farmer maggots oldest son? Did i understand your change right? --Haerangil (talk) 14:41, October 4, 2019 (UTC)

Blocked user

Allright i have decided to block user:the drunk orc.The user has recurrently removed or deleted content contributed by other users without previous discussion and inconceavably ignored all requests , advices and warnings not to do so.I had left him the option to comment on his own talk page and he even had the guts to delete the posts with my warnings and the reason for his temporary block and insult me on a personal level.Sorry but i can't allow such behaviour on what is intended to be a shared project.Of course there will always be content of questionable or disputable matter and of course one might want to change or remove such content or try to adjust it to fit better with the Middle-earth canon.But i can not allow people running wild, changing things writted by other people -including myself- arbitrarily and at random the way they like and after nothing but their own taste.Such topics and changes need to be subject of discussion before major edits are made.--Haerangil (talk) 17:30, October 5, 2019 (UTC)

Haerangil, this ahole should have been blocked a long time ago, he was going around and messing up all the articles. He didn't contribute to anything! Good riddance.

I thank you for your compassion.--Haerangil (talk) 22:14, October 5, 2019 (UTC)


Evenin’, Herangil. Just thought I’d let you know what most of my edits are usually like, and ask for your advice in return. Usually, I will try to edit minor grammatical aspects and sometimes try to make language or context a little clearer. If one of my edits is a bit too extreme, feel free to let me know. Sometimes I may over-edit something thinking I’m giving more meaning to a story or giving hope to a depressing one.

Thank you! Just try not to remove other users contributed content without any prior discussion and everything is fine! --Haerangil (talk) 01:06, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

New Land and Dark Land Names

Hey Haerangil, I was wondering--since we are saying that men from the east managed to cross into the New Lands sometime between the Second & Third Ages, I was wondering what names the Lossoth like tribes would have based on Tolkien's work. I mean, the Lossoth currently have Finnish names and I don't think those would be very Native American sounding! Moran half valar (talk) 04:03, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

the Lossoth language is represented by finnish as a nod to JRRT'S love of finnish.I don't know what languages conlangs for the dark lands and new langs could be based on.MERP has used Amerind as a base for some of the farthest east languages, however the structure is still pretty much based on Jrrt elvish.I guess primitive Quendian and Melkorin are pretty much the very base of all mannish languages.Then to develop new languages one would have to abstracize from these... --Haerangil (talk) 19:32, November 3, 2019 (UTC)

Dark Lands

Can you please finish the persons of reknown on the Dark Lands page? It hasn't been completed yet. Or at least can you add some character bios on there? Moran half valar (talk) 23:48, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

i can't at the moment!sorry... --Haerangil (talk) 19:32, November 3, 2019 (UTC)

Then can you answer me this, are you drawing mostly on Urulan, the great Isle of eastern Jaiman from the module Vog Mur for inspiration for the Dark Lands? I have the Vog Mur module and can fill in many gaps, but it was the newer one adapted to shadow world. 

Also, are there any other Shadow World modules you would want me to look up for inspiration? I have a good portion of those, but I just need to know the direction this wiki is heading with Southernesse. Please let me know as soon as possible. Moran half valar (talk) 22:36, November 3, 2019 (UTC)

Actually no, i did not draw much from shadow world, as i mainly collected what Norman Talbot wrote in his one article for Other hands magazine and after that what ever i took from the few maps/sketches of southernesse which were published by the fanmodules project.Though i adjusted both to fit more with the canon.The only RM info i eventually added were a few names which appeared in the published Loremaster books.To be honest i'd like to keep Middle-earth and shadow world apart and NOT include anything else from the Rolemaster legacy.Though i wouldn't like to completely erase Loremaster, after all there are too many traces if it left in the MERP canon to ignore it.So far i like it that nothing was written on easternesse/the New lands.Some things better stay mysterys. --Haerangil (talk) 04:32, November 4, 2019 (UTC)

Okay got it Shadow world and Middle Earth apart. But we are world building and you have already put a lot about Southerness on the Dark Lands page anyways, like Blood Drinking Dragons and other stuff of Loremaster nature. We have this page already, I think it would be neat to see the Dark Lands totally flushed out, but if you are unwilling to do that, then I don't see why we made a Dark Lands page to begin with then. Moran half valar (talk) 04:45, November 4, 2019 (UTC)

i was documenting and collecting other peoples works.I am also not saying i'll never turn towards the details of these articles, i just can't do it right now and i have other things on my to-do list first.By the way that is how i created this wiki right from the start, first collecting overviews and making lists, then filling out these lists/collections and doing the detail work.--Haerangil (talk) 11:26, November 6, 2019 (UTC)


The stance of this wiki is that the Beornings ability to change is based upon genetics and not a learned ability--because everyone would be using it if it was learned right? It comes down to a spirit/maiar that passed the genetic ability to transform into a were-bear. So eventually this skill would die out right? Moran half valar (talk) 23:15, November 3, 2019 (UTC)

it is not clear if the trait is inherited by genetics or by cultural practice.I am happy with leaving it uncertain.--Haerangil (talk) 04:26, November 4, 2019 (UTC)

You made it about genetics, thus is why you have Berubero being the founding father. If it was a learned skill, then everyone would be changing into were-bears and the cult wouldn't die out at all! Moran half valar (talk) 04:46, November 4, 2019 (UTC)

i did NOT make it about genetics.I insist it is still open.Traditions die out, those things just happen.Especially when kept among a small circle of initiates.According to LOTRO the shapeshifting skill came from Radagast btw. Though i am not a big fan of that idea.--Haerangil (talk) 11:28, November 6, 2019 (UTC)

Gates of Gehenna

Do you know of any characters that were supposed to be included or anything about this module? I would like to list some of the characters...if any are known, if not I guess we can just make them up? Or should we use Shadow World characters as a bases? Moran half valar (talk) 05:20, November 24, 2019 (UTC)

i have zero info on that.I have read Gethaena and it's weird... to incorporate it to a Middle-earth setting would not be easy... --Haerangil (talk) 09:02, November 24, 2019 (UTC)

Ferny snr and squint pics

Why change back the image on Bill Ferny the Elder if I may ask?

There were two non-canonical ruffians (Bill Ferny Snr. - Bill Ferny's father; the "Squint" - the squint-eyed southerner or if not his father) at the Prancing Pony inn in The HobbitDesolation of Smaug:


This one played by Dallas Barnett. He is credited as Bill Ferny Snr. But notice he has as a squint.This is clearly intended to be the squint-eyed southerner we see in J.R.R. Tolkien's The Fellowship of the Ring or his father at the very least. 


This one played by Matt Smith. He is credited as the "Squint". But despite his nickname he has no squint. And though black-haired, the "wild" locks of hairs and the ragged clothing more closely resemble the look of Bill Ferny (according to the Trading Card Game). 


This is one of the ill-favoured Men at the Prancing Pony inn in The Fellowship of the Ring who is identified as Bill Ferny by the Trading Card Game. Even though they are actors and all and this is fiction, he has more in common look-like and clothing-like to Matt Smith's character than Dallas Barnett's.

I'm not complaining that you changed the image. After all, you're the founder here not me. You know best. But at least tell me if you don't think it is just a credits mistake. I mean... the "Squint" has no squint but his partner-in-crime has a squint. It seems like they have been mistakenly swapped. (Also a question: according to this wiki which one is supposed to be the squint-eyed southerner: Euog or Doeth? They're both half-orcs so I couldn't figure that out).Alex of Star Wars (talk) 19:30, January 16, 2020 (UTC)

That is a good point.I think i am convinced and will change it back!--Haerangil (talk) 19:34, January 16, 2020 (UTC)

The Kingdom of Romenor

Greetings Haerangil, I've been following this wiki for a long time and recently discovered that the old(early 2000s era) Romenor website is available on the Wayback Machine(right here: ). I'm considering going and transfering that content onto the wiki here, ust to make sure it is preserved for posterity, but I'm not sure if you'd want that or not, or would rather I rewrite the information in a different fromat to avoid copying straight from the old Romenor website. I think it's a wonderful fan expansion of Middle-Earth and would love to see it preserved for the future, especially in such an alteady expansive and beautiful wiki that you have. Fargoniac (talk) 23:00, February 15, 2020 (UTC)

Hi! Well, technically that's what's this Wiki supposed for...

on the other hand it would probably need a lot of retcon-work to make romenor fit in, like i had to do with Southernesse... i usually abstain from modifying other people's work that much, it's like taking their ideas away. On the other hand, this happens all the time on this wiki... --Haerangil (talk) 01:41, February 16, 2020 (UTC)

That makes sense, so what do you think should be done? Or will you have to think about it more? Fargoniac (talk) 05:48, February 16, 2020 (UTC)

just do it, we'll work it in somehow.--Haerangil (talk) 07:49, February 16, 2020 (UTC)

Smaug - servant/allly (?) of Sauron

I know the books say nothing on this subject. In Unfinished Tales, Gandalf only feared that Sauron could compell Smaug into his service (or at the very least forge an alliance with him): "The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect." 

I am aware that "might" does not mean certain. But given that Gandalf is a very knowledgeable and wise being, he wouldn't be daunteed by something that didn't seem almost surely to happen. Lusting for power and enticed, Saruman swore allegiance (though not 100% genuine) to Sauron, seeking to either gain the One Ring for himself or become his servant alone. Smaug has an inherent thirst for gold and a taste for destruction. Though Dragons' loyalty is somewhat questionable (whether it be to Morgoth or Sauron), they did the bidding of evil overlords when it suited them as well. 

But how do we know that Smaug was not already in Sauron's employ? After all, we know the "Necromancer" was stirring up the confederations of Easterlings (mainly the Wainriders and Balchoth), the Corsairs of Umbar, the Black Numenoreans, the hill-men in the North, tribes of Orcs from the Misty Mountains, packs of wild Wolves (and Wargs) and Trolls from the Ettenmoors. Why would he not have a hand behind drawing old Smaug from his lair? Word did spread fast of the treasure hoard the Dwarves had within Erebor, but why could the Dragon not have been directed there by an unseen force? A greater Power he might be susceptible to whose commands he would be susceptible to and one who could exploit his greed? 

The Hobbit extended edition films (although they are NON-CANONICAL) confirm Gandalf's fears when Thrain reveals that "the Dragon and the One" are in league. In the theathrical cut, Smaug hints that he is awaiting his master, Sauron, to declare himself once more and cover the lands in Darkness. 

In LOTRO, Sauron is revealed to have sent heralds and messengers to buy Smaug's allegiance (though the Dragon perishes before the Dark Lord's agents succeed). 

Given that this wiki also delves in FANON outside information from J.R.R. Tolkien's books, Christopher Tolkien's revisions, Peter Jackson's films and EA's games, why can't Smaug be a secret servant/ally of Sauron? Or at the very least mention the Dark Lord's attempts to recruit him (unlike Morgoth who would have allowed fellow dark forces run about as agent of chaos and not command them himself, Sauron recruits many into his service or at the very least stirs them up/influences them from afar. As Gandalf noted, the fallen Maia could have persuaded Smaug to join with him, promising him immense wealth). Or at least hint that it was Sauron's doing that made sure word of Erebor's riches reached Smaug?

Your the founder/admin so you know best. I just want to know why we can't speculate on the matter given we also write Tolkien-related  FANON  here. Have a nice time, Haerangil!Alex of Star Wars (talk) 16:50, February 18, 2020 (UTC)

Yup.Mentioning that Sauron MIGHT recruit Smaug or maybe TRIED to recruit Smaug is a different thing from stating that Smaug DID swear allegiance to Sauron.The last gives us serious lore-trouble, the first is ok.--Haerangil (talk) 18:55, February 18, 2020 (UTC)


I think the name of Castandur should be change to "Castarion", due to the original second son of Castamir is called Castarion, not Castandur. Thanks

Morgomir88 (talk) 17:58, February 19, 2020 (UTC)

Hmm we don't have any canonic names for Castamir's children as far as i know... it's possible that Castaher or Castarion are from MERP though, i'll check that out...

--Haerangil (talk) 15:15, February 20, 2020 (UTC)

Sauron image

I think a black and white image of the FOTR Sauron would be better. I know the deleted ROTK one makes his angelic status plain, but still he fell and became the second Dark Lord. He is a fallen Maia, twisted by his lust for mastery and desire to impose order by any means necessary.

The armor is reminiscent of Morgoth's and makes him more sinister and terryfying. It is also the most well known portrayal in adaptations beside the "Lidless Eye". And I have no doubt that in the film universe he fashioned it himself as a testimony of his might.

I know the books are vague about how he looked as Dark Lord of Mordor but still. The white one is too fair and may be used for his time as Annatar or when he came to ask pardon from Eonwe, but not to reflect the terror he inspires among his enemies as well as his servants.Alex of Star Wars (talk) 18:15, February 24, 2020 (UTC)

Well, i really generally tend to shy away from using movie stills...

and especially that depiction in the film intro is so unbearable hoaky.Often it's really hard to escape the fact that now all people associate a characters look with the pj movies, and i still honestly just don't understand why his depiction of a hardly recognizable black helmet should be better than his short angelic appearance.After all it's probably his "real" form.--Haerangil (talk) 18:27, February 24, 2020 (UTC)

Card Games

LotR card games: reffering tou yours last update in LotR LCG card game - both games LCG and TCG are two different games (TCG is/was morelikely collectible game with trading market arround it, so I'm deleting yours last update  in article when have been added refferenc to TCG game characters list.

i do not understand.The characters of this list seem to be exactly the same as those who appear in the game mentioned in the article... Iarion, Thaurdir, Mughash...

i guess it must be the same game.Thei're neither from meccg nor from deciphers lotr ccg. The Lord of the Rings: TCG Characters --Haerangil (talk) 09:53, March 4, 2020 (UTC)

Those are not the same games - belive me ;), I know it because i play LCG recently. It looks like to me that the authors, brought some elements, features (in some cases only naming) from previous game to the next game.

there are 3 card games which I recognize - each of them IS NOT continuity or 2nd edition of previous one: 1. M-E CCG 1995 - 1998:  Middle-earth Collectible Card Game (MECCG)  (i know it only from internet) 2. LotR TCG 2001 - 2007: The Lord of the Rings Trading Card Game  (I have few decks) This on with artworks (screanshots from the movie) was related to the Movie Trilogy. 3. LotR LCG 2011 - till now: The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game (I'm geek of it) Sonofthewild (talk) 12:11, March 4, 2020 (UTC)

Yes i know.It seems i had confused lotr tcg and lotr lcg.

I tried to correct that, there are now categories for characters from all three games:


--Haerangil (talk) 14:33, March 4, 2020 (UTC)

Sonofthewild (talk) 10:44, March 27, 2020 (UTC) yes

12 Mithrisars

I guess after all these years, we could never find the full 12 members. Have you found anything at all in your searches? Moran half valar (talk) 00:28, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

you know, i was never really interested to give a full list.I am very happy leaving the other members a mystery ... everybody can fill the gaps out after his own wishes and have some possible survivors if he needs some ancient cabal somewhere.I don't like it if every mystery is solved.--Haerangil (talk) 03:28, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Textual Ghosts

I think some people don't understand what Textual Ghosts are in the Unnamed Characters section. No where does it state or even hint that Beorn has a sister, nor does it state or show anywhere that Arvedui had other kids besides Aranarth. 

I think the textual ghost page has been filled with fanfic stuff--while this is okay, it should have a bases from the story and not just be something totally made up. Moran half valar (talk) 12:30, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

Yes,there's definitely too much disorder and characters in the wrong category!What you've mentioned should be put under "assumed characters" ,certainly not under "textual ghosts".--Haerangil (talk) 13:42, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

Dragons - Sauron

When was Gostir born: First Age or Second Age? Was he a servant of Morgoth? I am asking because I want to add info of Dragons who were recruited by Sauron at the height of his power in the Second Age - when he was  Lord of the Rings, King of the World and Lord of the Earth - and I don't want them to be of Glaurung's first brood (I doubt they would be cowed easily by the Second Dark Lord given they served the dreaded First Dark Lord before; I think their relationship at best would be Sauron-Shelob so neither true servants nor allies).

I am guessing Sauron should have an overall of only 5-6 known Dragons among his forces, as only Morgoth had enough willpower to have hundreds (at the end of the War of Wrath, when Ancalagon led a large host of winged Dragons). I also believe he shouldn't have more than 1 or 2 lesser Dragons in the late Third Age during the War of the Ring) (as Smaug was the last great Fire-Drake;  the Dark Lord himself is also considerably weaker than he was when he possessed the One Ring so maybe it was more difficult to gain the allegiance of more potent Dragons). Alex of Star Wars (talk) 12:27, April 10, 2020 (UTC) 

we don't have any canonic info on Gostir except for his name.According to MERP he was second Age so i guess he was born after Angbands fall.To be honest i believe Sauron should have ZERO dragons under his command!--Haerangil (talk) 13:28, April 10, 2020 (UTC)

I think at least 1 should have served the second Dark Lord. It would further explain the motivations behind Gandalf's fear of Sauron using the last great Fire-Drake, Smaug (if Sauron had commanded a Dragon in the past surely he could have recruited one later on when most of the preparations for war were complete). It is more logical for Gandalf's thinking to be attentive to the past. If Sauron had not once exploited a Dragon before, then why would someone as wise as Gandalf do his best to guide the Dwarves into a quest that would ensure the Dragon would be unable to answer the Dark Lord's offer? Alex of Star Wars (talk) 20:04, April 10, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Haerangil, Sauron had NO DRAGONS! He was hoping to put Smaug under his control in the Third Age, but Gandalf and Thorin's company is what foiled Sauron's plan for this. Thus, he had no dragons in the Third Age serving him. It is subjective on whether he had any in the Second Age, but given that most of their species were wiped nearly out, I would debate and say that he had no dragons in the Second Age either. Moran half valar (talk) 20:12, April 10, 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, he probably didn't have any in the Third Age (now that I think about it J.R.R. would have mentioned Dragons if they had fought for the Dark Lord in the War of the Ring). I am not sure about the Second Age, however. There should be some precedent to Smaug to make Gandalf's fear motivated. 

If the Dark Lord saw potential in Smaug as a servant, then surely he would have noted Dragons before as beasts of war (he was once the most trusted lieutenant of Morgoth who had many at his beck and call). I don't think he would let them go to waste. Durin's Folk opposed Sauron in the Second Age. Dragons usually hated the Dwarves. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend). There wouldn't have been many, however, given that Drakes tend to rather rest in their lairs on piles of treasures rather than disturb the peace of the Free Peoples too much.

My point of view. But of course, we do it your way, you two have more experience on this wiki than I do and there is no need for an endless debate (there's QUORA or other things for that). I repeat one last time the point I tried to make: "Why would Gandalf fear Sauron would use the Dragon if he had not already done so with another Dragon sometime before?" Anyway, sorry for being so persistent. Have a nice time and see you sometime later!Alex of Star Wars (talk) 20:39, April 10, 2020 (UTC)

Rhun's Tribes

Hey Haerangil, do you have a military breakdown of the differing tribes of Rhun? Such as Ioriags, Shay, etc? Moran half valar (talk) 05:17, April 14, 2020 (UTC)

military breakdown? Not really.what time periody are you referring to?I really tried to elaborate that very static history from MERP a bit more to give them some change and evolution within their culture.--Haerangil (talk) 00:09, April 16, 2020 (UTC)

The time periods I am referring to are: the Second Age (all of it) and the Third (all of it). We don't know if the Balchoth and Wainriders were completely destroyed, but I do know they were kicked back to Rhun.

So I would like a military breakdown, that is to say what made the armies different or similar. Ioriags, Shay, etc. should be made up of different units and tactics--right? Moran half valar (talk) 02:54, April 16, 2020 (UTC) 

i'm sorry, but that would be such a monumental piece of work, i can't do.--Haerangil (talk) 04:09, April 16, 2020 (UTC)

No, I wasn't asking you to come up with anything, I was just asking if there was any resources that I could use for these tribes besides what is posted on MERPS. Does Total War, LOTRO, Minecraft, or any other mod have any listings that you know of? Moran half valar (talk) 19:11, April 16, 2020 (UTC)

Well maybe the inland sea fanmodule could have something.LOTRO , Total war mods or minecraft mods could have something, but i am not sure how realistic or adaptable these sources could be.All in all i would base them on pre-horse nomad asian cultures, pre-iron-age for the second age.Wainriders and Balchoth hostorical chariot and wain-nomads certainly would do - sintashta culture maybe.Farthest east... pre-chinese cultures could work,and by pre chinese i mean pre-xia dynasty.--Haerangil (talk) 23:36, April 16, 2020 (UTC)

New Theme

Hey Haerangil, is there a specific background and color scheme you would want for the Wiki? Also would you be interested in me enabling discussions for the Wiki? --awyman13FandomStaff.png (Talk/Work) 04:14, April 21, 2020 (UTC)

hmm... i would be interested in both, i don't know how to do that...--Haerangil (talk) 08:11, April 21, 2020 (UTC)

I think that I've taken care of the background and color scheme issues. If they're still not satisfactory, we can work on them more. As far as the "Discussions" feature, IF you really want to enable it: Help:Discussions "General questions
How can I get Discussions for my community?
All new communities now come with the Discussions feature. If your old community does not have Discussions, send a request via the contact form!" Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 06:13, May 8, 2020 (UTC)

It works quite well for me, thank you. As for the discussions feature... i don't know... if people are really interested in it we could do it, i did not find it necessary so far, but i'm open to it.--Haerangil (talk) 11:58, May 8, 2020 (UTC)

Divide &Conquer mod


I absolutely adore what you've been doing here -- this wiki is such a lovely source for me to fill up those little gaps when thinking about my own Legendarium fan-stories. This, and the Third Age: Divide and Conquer mod for Medieval II Total War have been my personal source of Tolkien-esque goodness whenever I need it!

That aside, how would you feel if I fleshed out some of the Wiki's pages with lore from said Divide and Conquer mod? There's some fanfiction in there, especially in relation to Dorwinion (shown as a hybrid Avari-Northman realm), Orcs of Gundabad and the Blue Wizards that could be used here and there. Especially the Dorwinion lore could fit in nicely here (In my opinion), as I don't see any official sources being cited on its page, and its current page mainly describing a land of struggle between Easterlings and Northmen is a bit less magical.

Obviously up to you! Is but an offer. Thank you for your hard work. 


ZenonK (talk) 00:58, April 22, 2020 (UTC) 

hi! Well we had severe detailed discussions on Dorwinion on this board before, and so far i have been very reluctant of Avari realms and especially human-elf hybrid cultures, since i am suspicious on how they would fit in with the canon.Also i have, so far, mostly accepted quasi-official secondary sources, RPG material mostly, before fan-made material if they do not contradict the canon material.So basically one of the main troubles with a project like this is the streamlining, bringing contradicting sources into accord and generally finding a common ground between the many different versions of Middle-Earth we have seen so far...

but in general, yes, fleshing out, filling gaps and closing blind spots are some of the major objectives with this project.Still i'd ask contributors to discuss major changes with those authors who have worked on articles before, not that a contributors hard work in writing and research gets ignored and simply erased.Please use the talk option in the edit function for such arrangements.--Haerangil (talk) 01:44, April 22, 2020 (UTC)

Dark Land's Persons of Reknown

Why are there so many characters that are poets, singers, and dancers? Heck most of their characters aren't even around in TA 3000. What was Other Hands trying to do? Make part of their land Greek influence? Moran half valar (talk) 17:55, April 23, 2020 (UTC)

i think it is because Norman Talbot was a Professor for literature at an australian University, also his alter ego Porkshy is a loremaster and poet, so he basically is very interested in that profession.A lot of his characters are actual allusions to real-life persons from the australian literature and threatrical culture i believe.--Haerangil (talk) 19:27, April 23, 2020 (UTC)

Factions of Middle Earth

Hey Haerangil, I am having trouble coming up with a 6th faction for evil set during the time of WOTR (3018-3019). So far I have this list:

Mordor/Dol Guldur as one faction

Isengard/Dunland as one faction

Moria/Goblin Town/Gundabad/Mt. Gram as one faction (Misty Mountains)

Easterlings/Balchoth/Wainriders/Umli as one faction (Rhun)

Southrons/Mahuds [Utter South]/Umbar/Khand as one faction (Harad)

But I am struggling with a sixth evil faction. I need one set during the time of WOTR. I was thinkng Grey Mountains consisting of orc holds, Withered Heath, and Forodwaith. I am not sure for characters though and who would unite them. Think you can help me out? Moran half valar (talk) 21:37, April 27, 2020 (UTC)

i don't know.Sorry, i'd have to inow where this is going...--Haerangil (talk) 00:31, April 28, 2020 (UTC)

Category Clean-up

Hi Haerangil: There seem to be a lot of redundant categories. I assume that, except for persons/peoples, there is no need for a distinction between singular/plural. I would like to clean up redundant categories and standardize by combining/renaming the following:

  • 1432‏‎ (3 members), 1441‏‎ (12 members), 1640‏‎ (544 members), 1650‏‎ (174 members), 1970‏‎ (5 members), 1975‏‎ (1 member), 2770 (28 members), 2941‏‎ (283 members), 2950‏‎ (475 members), 3001‏‎ (24 members), 3018‏‎ (459 members), 3019‏‎ (929 members) -> add "Category:Third Age" to all (i.e.: they all become members of Third Age) DONE
  • Animal‏‎ (57 members) vs Animals‏‎ (255 members) - this will be labor-intensive DONE
  • Animate Plants‏‎ (3 members) + Animate plants‏‎ (7 members)
  • Animate things‏‎ (14 members) -> Animate Things
  • Archipelago‏‎ (1 member) -> Archipelago‏‎s
  • Artist‏‎ (25 members) -> Artists
  • Assassin‏‎ (32 members) -> Assassins
  • Avikangsdar‏‎ (2 members) -> create new category page with Category:Region DONE
  • Axe‏‎ (22 members) -> Axes
  • Background (1 member) -> eliminate by removing it from Category:Movies DONE
  • Barrow -> Barrows
  • Battle beasts‏‎ (2 members) + Battlebeast‏‎ (1 member)
  • Bay‏‎ (73 members) -> Bays
  • Bay of belfalas‏‎ (71 members) -> Bay of Belfalas
  • Beach‏‎ (8 members) -> Beaches
  • Beacon‏‎ (35 members) -> Beacons
  • Beasts of burden‏‎ (13 members) -> Beasts of Burden
  • Bfme‏‎ (24 members) -> BFME
  • Bird‏‎ (6 members) vs Birds‏‎ (53 members)
  • Black númenóreans‏‎ (37 members) -> Black Númenóreans‏‎ (37 members)
  • Boar‏‎ (2 members) + Boars‏‎ (2 members)
  • Bow‏‎ (2 members) -> Bows
  • Bridge‏‎ (24 members) -> Bridges
  • Brown Lands‏‎ (2 members) + Brown lands‏‎ (12 members)
  • Burglar‏‎ (6 members) -> Burglars

and that's just A-B. :-) Please let me know what you think. Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 06:51, May 6, 2020 (UTC)

y3s, thank you for helping me clean up the wikis structures... haven't done that for years!--Haerangil (talk) 12:03, May 6, 2020 (UTC)

Also: there is one category (Groups) and 67 pages in Category:Organization. That category is for Wiki organization, not organizations within Arda. They should all be moved: move 'em all into Category:Groups and move Groups to Category:Main. Your thoughts? I volunteer to do it. Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 10:46, May 6, 2020 (UTC)

yes, i misunderstood the meNing of category:orgNisation.--Haerangil (talk) 11:59, May 6, 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for supporting (or at least indulging) my efforts to improve and (re)organize your wiki. My goal has been to make it more attractive, appealing and user-friendly; and to make it more "professional" in both appearance and structure. I hope the changes so far please you. If ever you are not happy, just let me know (I won't be offended) and I'll try to rectify the issue. Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 02:03, May 8, 2020 (UTC)

thank you for your time and efforts.--Haerangil (talk) 12:28, May 8, 2020 (UTC)
you did create a new category for Avikangsdar.Do you plan to write more on that region?Just asking because, if there is not much content for one ofvthe wild lands i usually do not see a reason to create a category for one of them... larger regions such as womawas drus or lands which have their own module such as Ardor are obvious exceptions.Thank you again for your rime and efforts.--Haerangil (talk) 14:49, May 24, 2020 (UTC)

No, no plans - it just seemed easy at the time. I will desist from this in future. :-)
But I have discovered a potentially bigger problem…
Many article pages here are simply redirects to the same-named category page. I see the logic in this, but there are two very good reasons NOT to do this:

  1. It breaks wiki protocol; this is important among other reasons because…
  2. Category pages may NOT be counted as articles in {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}. So we probably currently have many MANY more than 12,434 articles. Notice the recent increase in article count since I've been "playong" around.

However, fixing this may be practically impossible. --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 23:12, May 24, 2020 (UTC)
EDIT: If it's really important to have the article text appear on the corresponding Category page, it can be transcluded in with {{:PageName}}. That way, edits to the article page appear on the category page.

Yeah, well, that was one of the early decisions i made when i started the wiki, because i saw that with many other wikis the category/article structure was detracting from content and i wanted all content to be well interlinked and easily accessible...

as i moved on i noticed that what i had done was unecessary and could have been easily solved in another way... well that's how it is now.--Haerangil (talk) 04:47, May 25, 2020 (UTC)

The Wild Lands South and East, Gazetteer by Pete Fenlon

There are several references in this wiki to this Gazetteer. Is this it:…/Endor @ That appears to be the latest archived version of the page before it was taken down. It would be good to be able to cite it for reference. Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 03:07, May 10, 2020 (UTC)

ah! You found a mirror! Yes that appears to be pretty much the version i had... downloaded the entire thing ages ago, before it was taken down.--Haerangil (talk) 10:45, May 10, 2020 (UTC)

Curiously, it seems a question related to this topic has just popped up on MERP Fan Modules. Please see: Talk:Góak. Thanks, Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 01:42, May 12, 2020 (UTC)

Morgoth & Sauron images

Is either of these images by Kimberly good for the Sauron and Morgoth articles? I think their faces look angelic, but there is that something in their eyes which betrays pride and a scheming nature, which are traits both Dark Lords show. I thought I'd take this up with you before I added them to their respective pages. It's a petty matter, but given that you disagreed with the picture of The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring portrayal of Sauron with good arguments I though it would be better if I did tell you. Let me know when you can.Alex of Star Wars (talk) 14:06, May 11, 2020 (UTC)

technically i like all of them, but do we really need more pics of them? To be honest, i like to keep it simple...--Haerangil (talk) 16:15, May 11, 2020 (UTC)

I understand. There are indeed pages around here that could be expanded with further content, instead of me adding more to something more or less established. I will choose one only for Sauron... and you can undo it later if you want to.  I'll try to focus more on the Blackwolds and Sharkey's Company articles and related individuals from now on (since I began to play LOTRO again I felt it would be appropiate as these allies of Angmar and Isengard make up the common enemies until Book 2). Have a nice time!Alex of Star Wars (talk) 18:31, May 11, 2020 (UTC)

well i really did not veto any more Sauron pics.If that is an important issue to you i would , for example, be okay with a slideshow somewhere on the article, like the ones user Hlingler put up on some articles,Please just do not replace the infobox pic, ok? Thx.--Haerangil (talk) 23:13, May 11, 2020 (UTC)

War of the Elves and Sauron Characters

Hey Haerangil, you stated that Taran and some of the characters I added were not there...well go to your unnamed characters section, scroll down to the commanders of Haradrim and Easterlings, and that is where I got the names from. They were added by you I believe. Moran half valar (talk) 20:19, May 11, 2020 (UTC)

well the link led to only one Taran, a construct used by the ty-ar rana... on second Age Haradrim Taran, i don't remember having him put there, though i might have googled him, i get many names from searching the web via google, especially fanfic pages.Amav, certainly not, that was a culture hero from MERP frommpre-mumakani times.However i still doubt there were many Haradrim or even easterlings active in Eriador at the supposed time... Sauron did recruit among the men of Enedhwaith and Minhiriath to some point, and possibly from other eareas of eriador, however he had pretty solid allies in pre-numenorean Gondor, so i suppose that us whwre a bulk of his human troops would have come from.--Haerangil (talk) 23:06, May 11, 2020 (UTC)

Custom Developer's Wiki add-ons

I have installed the following (stable) add-ons to my personal account (User:Hlingler/common.js):

  • AjaxRC - auto-refresh for selected pages (currently: Special:Recentchanges[default], Special:WikiActivity, and Special:Watchlist); the auto-refresh is "silent"; the check-box can quickly disable the feature.
  • ReferencePopups - references/footnotes display in a pop-up when hovered over, rather than re-focusing the page to the reference when clicked; user-configurable via the pop-up itself (the gear icon, top right of pop-up).
  • PageEditInfo (includes PageCreator and LastEdited) - adds configurable info just below page title; highly configurable: I have suited my preferences. EDIT: One advantage is that pressing the "diff" button on "Last Edited" opens a pop-up, instead of a new page.
    I can add any, all, or none of these globally to our wiki, if you think they would be useful. But Fandom approval is required to edit our wiki's common.js. --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 01:46, May 25, 2020 (UTC)
i am not sure if i understand any of it.But when you think it uswful... why not?--Haerangil (talk) 04:41, May 25, 2020 (UTC)

OK, the only one really useful for the general public is ReferencePopups, so I imported it (MediaWiki:ImportJS). I very much prefer to see references in a pop-up rather than a page re-focus, and I think that this add-on will be welcome by casual users. The others add-ons are mainly for techno-geeks/admins/power-users/wannabes.
If you can think of any additional functionality that might be useful, let me know & I'll look into it - there are *many* existing add-ons to chose from. --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 16:36, May 25, 2020 (UTC)

ok cool.--Haerangil (talk) 18:07, May 25, 2020 (UTC)


Hey Haerangil:
Long time no see. I hope that you are well.
I would like to request that FANDOM enable InstantCommons, to allow us to link to their image files without our having to individually upload common images ourselves.
Please let me know how you feel about this idea.
Thanks, --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 02:55, June 16, 2020 (UTC)

Hi there!Yes, i had some other gligations, but now i am back and hope i can again care for the wiki.Good idea actually! That would spare a lot of time and effort... i am still busy by categorizing all pics and graphics... had i to look up every single one and find out who was exactly the artist and how cr looks like, that 'd be a nightmare!--Haerangil (talk) 17:20, July 1, 2020 (UTC)

OK, InstantCommons has been enabled. Usage: MediaWiki:InstantCommons. I will post a public Notification (the bell icon near the search box).
NOTE that this does *not* address licensing nor source/credits issues - it merely allows us to link to InstantCommons images as if they were already uploaded onto our wiki. The nightmare that you speak of still lurks in the background…. --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 21:48, July 1, 2020 (UTC)

Here's an example of use of InstantCommons image: Caradhras. The file in question is the first image: File:Caradras.jpg (note misspelling 😊). It's a computer-generated 3D rendering, licensed as "Public Domain". I found the image here: Middle-earth - *NOTE* that not all available images are shown on that page - you must follow the "Category:XYZ" links. But much of what we might use is probably on that page or linked from it.
The sample page also illustrates use of the new Template:GeographyInfobox. --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 06:23, July 2, 2020 (UTC)
looks very good!--Haerangil (talk) 16:19, July 6, 2020 (UTC)

Use of Goth

Given that Goth in Orcish means "Master", shouldn't it be more of a title than an actual name? I know Morgoth contains "goth", but still, both Dark Lords were their masters (even if Morgoth was the first Dark Lord). Like Goth Sharkhburz or Goth Belcha? It would make a lot more sense for Goth to be reserved for both Dark Lords. Or if not we should make another similar title for Sauron but in Black Speech (I recall, the Orcs in PJs The Hobbit reffered to a master as Dorkuz; its neo-Black Speech and film, but if you think Goth should be reserved for Morgoth than we can do it this way). Or does Shakburz translate into "Lord" or "Master"?Alex of Star Wars (talk) 19:58, July 1, 2020 (UTC)

well... presumably.But Goth is one of the only few words we actually have from 1st age orcish... it is almost certainly a corruption of Morgoth with a changed meaning so i doubt that at last in the 1st age the orcs would have used it in any other sense.Later... i don't know.ICE sadly chose to do so and used it in other orcish names or terms ,so i guess we have to deal with it.But Shakhburz is Saurons quasi-official name in the black speech, and it already means "dark lord", so goth-shakhburz probably would be a bit too much, especially for lazy orcs.--Haerangil (talk) 20:26, July 1, 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps Goth was originally reserved for Morgoth and it lost its original meaning following the First Age. Shakh (and its variation, Shakburz) might have similarly been used for Sauron, but lost its original meaning after his defeat in the Second Age. The orcs adopted these terms for their own chieftains (orcs post-FA would possibly be "Goth"-s and some orcs post-SA would ve "Shark"-s). Alex of Star Wars (talk) 09:59, July 2, 2020 (UTC) 

Recent discussion requests…

Hi Christian:
Please review the first (top) 16 items on this list, when you have some time: [1]
These are questions/comments that I have posted since you went on "vacation" about mid-May. I would appreciate your responses.
Thanks, --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 04:55, July 4, 2020 (UTC)

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