The New Notion Club Archives
The New Notion Club Archives

New editor

Hi there, I just want to find out about why the wikia has changed? Its making a lot of things harder for me to know this new version.Spenpiano (talk) 04:38, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean? if youre talking about the new editor, yes i also suffer deeply from it... half the time i can't quite edit, read or save.It does not seem to be compatible with ANY of my four browsers...--Haerangil (talk) 05:00, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Welcome Back

Welcome back Haerangil, thought you had disappeared off the face of the earth. Anyhow, good to see ya. I wanted to ask you, how much evil is left in the Northern Waste during the WOTR? I read that most of the Dragons went to the Withered Heath in TA 2500s and that the orcs mainly filled the Misty and Grey Mountains.

So is there any evil left in the Northern Waste at this time? Above or Underground? Tolkien Gateway classifies Forodwaith (Northern Waste) as an evil realm. Moran half valar (talk) 20:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

well, i am alive, but these are harsh times for some of us, i needed to step back.I am quite glad you guys keep everything up here without me.
Forodwaith... well it WAS part of Morgoth's northern realm, i mean you got the iron mountains, you got Angband and Utumno.On the other hand you got father christmas too. Apart from that it is a blank slate as far as i know.If i had to imagine something i would read the Kalevala, finish myth,old norse Utgardr and Nifelheim, Hyperborea, maybe theres something in russian and other slavic myth one could use. I'd guess if there is evil it is mostly winterdemons, no second Mordor or anything the like.--Haerangil (talk) 23:33, 17 February 2021 (UTC)


Are there any depictions/descriptions of Fankil anywhere, is there any artwork of him from anyone? Other Hands or some other fanon sources? Moran half valar (talk) 03:26, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

None that i know of, i meN he is basically apocryphal, even the one story he Ppears in in lost tales is an unfinished and abandoned one.Historically he is basically an early version of Sauron,just like Thu.--Haerangil (talk) 19:58, 21 February 2021 (UTC)


Thank you for the help with edits, oh Haerangil. I have just recently returned to activity on this wonderful and informative archive of J.R.R Tolkien cannon and expanded cannon, and I have attempted to elaborate on many topics of Tolkien's vision and expand on the details of Middle-Earth. Some topics I have less expertise in than others, chiefly in linguistic topics; for example, my recent edit of the history of Elmir, Ermon and the first Men of Hildorien. There I very reasonably linked the history of Men to Biblical legend, and yet my expertise in the linguistic and cultural details (especially the Avari translations of Biblical names in English) is rather incomplete. I appreciate your help with this topic and with others, and I wish you Godspeed in all of your ventures. I dare not bring up the circumstances of the world at this time, but I think that I'm right in feeling as though we have all been embroiled in a Dark Plauge of our own world; which provides a chance for the wise, the great, and the small but clever to prove themselves.

With Respect, Santino Sunness, Friend of Hobbits

can't help you much with these things, i merely watch over the canonicity.As long as the canon is not changed or violated I usually won't interfere.I've already criticized some parts i did not like, where there is too much obvious biblical analogy, bear in mind JRRT usually restrained himself from getting too closely biblical.However i also cannot simply forbid you to work in that direction.--Haerangil (talk) 18:19, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Perfectly understandable, and as with every fantasy story, I always try to keep my references to real-life mythologies generally in the legendary, in-universe context. We must remember also that Tolkien's partial motivation, in addition to creating a world in which to manifest his invented languages and to entertain his children, and later the world at large, was to incorporate his Catholic faith into the context of pagan, Mediterranean and Celtic mythologies. I have chiefly focused such edits on the era of the beginning of Man, which Tolkien depicted in its Biblical form; ex. the passage "Of Men" in The Silmarillion hints that Morgoth himself left the fastness of Hell (Angband) and prostrated himself before the ancient Men of Hildorien, and some followed him and became corrupt. I would not connect this to Biblical mythology at all, if it was not obvious as such. In any case, I appreciate your advice, and if I overstep in this capacity, please feel free to correct me. Thank you, and good day.

New Pics

I'm sorry, but can you show me an example of what the pic can look like so that way I can get it.Spenpiano (talk) 00:58, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh and I also moved your talk section to my User talk. I hope I didn't break a rule in removing a message and putting in a different section.Spenpiano (talk) 01:00, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
well, Ísúr for example.--Haerangil (talk) 09:56, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Okay, I think I got it. Hopefully, I do. But can you check the other new images that I added and see if I managed to do it correctly this time? I need to be 💯% sure if I got it. Let me know what you say.Spenpiano (talk) 13:50, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
You're welcome😊 Also, check the new pages I added, see if I made any mistakes.Spenpiano (talk) 01:16, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Lagduf‎, Muzgash, and Radbug‎

Hi, I re-added new versions of the characters Lagduf‎, Muzgash, and Radbug‎. Hope they're good. Let me know what you think. 🤔 Spenpiano (talk) 19:51, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

sure.--Haerangil (talk) 21:37, 25 March 2021 (UTC)


I just switched the images of Déorbrand and Gléowine cause I thought it was much better. Let me know what you think of it.Spenpiano (talk) 03:42, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

oh, it's okay, i didn't like my old gleowine pic anyway.a lot of my old pics are terrible and more intended as placeholders til i find something better.Butnthe character identification is mostly important to me.not in this case though.--Haerangil (talk) 05:35, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
Okay 👌Spenpiano (talk) 05:39, 31 March 2021 (UTC)


Hi Haerangil, I know I looked at the Horse Lords of Rohan which revealed the names Meril, Saewara, and Thaena as the three unnamed daughters of King Thengel. Its exactly what it says. I think they should stay as they are. Thaena shouldn't be merged with Théodhild, but I may have something that could be useful. The LOTRO Wiki may not have shown proof that Théodhild is the daughter of King Thengel, so maybe my idea is can remove her as the daughter of King or my idea is she could've been adopted by the King. Its my idea. If you agree to it.Spenpiano (talk) 15:26, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Ok, so I just made some changes on the pages. Hopefully, this will do. Let me know what you think.Spenpiano (talk) 15:37, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
to be honest i see no difference, an adoptive daughter is still a daughter and a sister.And i believe the name thaena must be replaced by a proper angli-saxon name anyway.--Haerangil (talk) 17:42, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
Man, never post such links here, are you crazy?! I DO have that volume btw..I also think you miss the point WHY i say Thaena should be replaced by a different nameform.--Haerangil (talk) 01:11, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
Oh, my deepest apologies. I'll try to be careful not to post a link on your talk page.Spenpiano (talk) 01:22, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
You can post links any time you want, but not links to that kind of page, it could get the wiki into trouble.Besides... i checked LOTRO wiki, Theodhild is Theoden's niece, not his sister.Still the nameform of Thaena must be corrected though...--Haerangil (talk) 01:27, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
Like, which name would be good for Thaena?Spenpiano (talk) 01:30, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
So far i'm still researching.Sadly i'm not a linguist, but "Tháne" would be ok i guess, though if we change names after all a REAL name such as "Thainwyn","Thainhild" or similar would probably be better.Or "Thaine"?Unsure.--Haerangil (talk) 01:51, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

New Images

Hi Haerangil, so I replaced the images on the two pages of Imrahil the Fair and Forlong the Fat. Reason is, I found these images from a wiki site called Age of the Ring. If you seen it, let me know. Let me know what you think.Spenpiano (talk) 02:03, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't care too much for Imrahil's pic, some licensed prods used it for Imrahil, some called it "Irolas".Back then i wanted to set things right with the Lotr TCG, nowadays i care less,,luckily most people seem to have forgotten that shortlived rip-off of a game after all.
The Forlong pic i reverted, for some reason i always thought that unnamed extra was Forlong and egan to like the idea he was somehow in the movie.I also think the new Pic did NOT represent Forlongs look at all.If possible i always prefer good old illustrations and drawings above any kind of moviestills, but the general contamination of the Fandom with the moviepics was already done long before i started this wiki, so i just grudgingly accepted it and went with it.--Haerangil (talk) 04:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Fafnir and Sapphira

Hey Haerangil, can you do these two dragons biographies since you know more about them than I do. I would appreciate it man. Thank you and take care. Moran half valar (talk) 23:16, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Not really interested in this at the moment.Maybe someday... --Haerangil (talk) 03:35, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Fourth Age

So I was looking at the timeline that you have set up Haerangil, and I wanted to ask you about Herumor and his cult in the Fourth Age. I am wondering how powerful he would be given that you have characters who have access to 50th level spells (Cirdan, Radagast, Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, Durin VII, and possibly Eldarion with Aragorn II's items-Star of Elendil/Dunedain, Elessdar, etc.).

I don't see how Herumor, being a mere human could pose any significant threat to the Free Peoples in the Fourth Age. Since he is set during the reign of Eldarion, how could he contest any of these powers? Also, would Alatar and Pallando be his allies? They are the only rival force that could contest any of the powers above. Moran half valar (talk) 05:33, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I really don't care about RPG levels.From a literature point of view the fourth Age is the age of man, or the beginning of it, magic and supernatural things dimi nish to a degree we know from our history.I also am sure the Cult of the Dark tree is NOT a political or military issue towards Eldarions rule per se.The problem is the moral corruption from within, men getting bored by being good, bored by peace.That is the soil of which a herumor cult can grow.--Haerangil (talk) 09:42, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

But I thought you told me that you viewed Herumor as an Anti-Christ character--the Anti-Christ has power and can perform dark miracles (if going by Christian tradition) so shouldn't he have some magic or power? This is in the early fourth age. Moran half valar (talk) 04:29, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand Anti-Christ.There are many "antichrists" and they are not necessarily demons or miraclers, they are men.not talking about hollywood movies here but catholic theology.A roman emperor, a pope, a king, a false prophet , these all can be considered deceivers and Antichrists.--Haerangil (talk) 08:14, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Ring of Ether

So I know you are good with Quenya, I was wondering what would be a fitting name for a ring known as the Ring of Ether. I know Nar is Quenya for fire and ya is the suffix--so I what would a ring like this be called? Moran half valar (talk) 15:22, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Parf Edhellen gives Early Primitive Elvish/Early Quenya ilu = "ether" (the blue air about the stars where the perennial winds fare), so: Iluya. -Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 16:50, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

That is awesome HLingler, thank you so much! Moran half valar (talk) 22:12, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Dragon that devoured two rings and killed Dain I/Fror

Did you finally decide on a replacement Cold Drake Haerangil? Or are you sticking with Ando-Anca? I mean, I guess he could have mutated wings or magically flown since he devoured two rings and the rings are based off of the innate abilites of a bearer--also, Ando-Anca does come from a line of winged dragons...but if you have a replacement, let me know as soon as possible. Thank you. Moran half valar (talk) 22:19, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Véthug Wintermind?I cannot find the dwarves issue from LOTRRPG, it is somewhere...--Haerangil (talk) 12:15, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

You don't remember our conversation? We were discussing another dragon because you put Ando-Anca as the Cold Drake that kills Dain I and Fror, but there is no way he could have devoured two rings from the Red Mountains and then made it back to the Grey Mountains that fast unless he flew. So we were discussing about a replacement dragon and that is what I was asking you, if you had found a powerful replacement yet. Moran half valar (talk) 17:18, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, vethug is a winged dragon...

As long as i haven't found the dwarves of Middle-earth book i am afraid i can't say a lot about this.--Haerangil (talk) 19:00, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

So are we saying that Vethug and Andanc are one and the same? Because as it stands right now, you have Skell (Andanc) being the dragon that kills Dain I and Fror but also eats two of the four dwarf rings. Like I said, unless you change Andanc (Ando-Anca) to have wings, I don't see how he could make it from the Red Mountains to the Grey Mountains in such a short time. Moran half valar (talk) 05:49, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Nevermind Haerangil, you actually did put down that Andanc is a winged cold drake. I don't know if you meant to do this or if MERPS had changed this in a later addition, but on Andanc's page, you put down that he is a winged Cold Drake, which is different from Creatures of Middle Earth book. Moran half valar (talk) 05:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

i am not sqying anything.there are three version of it in 4hree different licensed products, Ando-Anca, Skell and Vethug.Skell is not described as far as i can remember, but i can't look it up when i can't find the book!Bringing contradicting versiont into concordance is a pretty hard thing.--Haerangil (talk) 18:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC)


I was wondering whether we could put quotes from the books (or maybe films in a few cases) as on other wikis at the beginning of an article (I haven't seen any article to do so, at least so far, that's why I'm asking). If adding quotes to articles becomes a thing, do you think it's ok making up quotes for some of the characters - by this I mean either the characters from Tolkien's mythology who have no dialogue or the characters who are derived from sources such as the role-playing games? Alex of Star Wars (talk) 17:09, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, some articles already have such introducing quotes.Of yourse also ones can be made up, just like the quotes from MERP and Kuduk lore.They just need to be marked as fanfic/fanon then.--Haerangil (talk) 21:23, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Gothic Names

Hi Guy!

I'm working on a new adventure scenario for MERP, and I have a list of about 15 Gothic names, for which I have no, or questionable, translations. The name forms themselves may be incorrect. You seem to have some knowledge of Gothic. Would you be willing to spend a little time reviewing this list?

-Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 01:24, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

i am not a linguist but i dabbled a bjt in germanic and celtic languages.I usually use latinized/modernized middle gothic or proto-germanic.I can take a look of course.--Haerangil (talk) 02:17, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Here's the list (Rh. = Rhovanian = (Neo-)Gothic):

  • Ailgarthas → Alciswardias – Rh: “Friends [of the] Sacred Stag”?
  • Aldoric – Rh: “Old Ruler”?
  • Atagavia → Aithgavia – Old Rh: “Sunrise”? or “Oath-dweller”?
  • Beadrith – Rh:
  • Bronwyn – Rh:
  • Brytta – Rh: “Bestower”? or “Divider”?
  • Buhr Ailgra → Alcisbaurg – Rh: “Deer-hold”?
  • Buhr Hleow → Hleibaurg – Rh: “Sheltered Burg”?
  • Buhr Widu → Vidusbaurg – Rh: “Wood Stronghold”?
  • Haithwyn – Rh:
  • Hwail – Rh:
  • Leodwyn – Rh:
  • Mahrcared → Marhcara – Rh: “Horse-care”?
  • Uirdrik → Wurdireik? – Rh: “Weird Ruler”?
  • Vidugavia – Rh: “Wood-dweller”?

Thanks Again! -Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 20:42, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

i see.Well "ailgarthas" makes no sense, i believe they intended "elk-yards" or "all-yards" but i changed "garthas" to "wardias", so "elk-guardians" or wardens it is now.though thinking about it it maybe should be "wards" instead of "wardias", both is possible i believe."Aldoric" is anglo-saxon "ealdor-ric", "elder ruler" which should be either "Aldrik" or "Aldrarik" in neo-gothic."Atagavia" means "father-dweller" therefore "aithagavia", "oath-dweller" which is a bit less awkward."Beadrith" is probably AS "Beothryth", "bee-strength", i guess it could be "Biothruthi" in neogothic."bronwyn" is welsh for "white breasted" i suggest "Brunwunia" or "Brunwunio", "bright joy" , instead."Brytta" is "divider", it could be "Brutio" or "Bruttio" in NG.'"Alcisbaurg" is correct, every name with "Buhr" is incorrect anyway."Hleibaurg" and "Vidubaurg" should be correct."Haithwyn" i do not recognize, i guess the meaning could be "heath-joy", that is "Heithiwunia" in NG."Hwail" i do not recognize, they may have intended "Hwael", impudent? I suggest "Walia", "chooser" in NG or "Waila", "well" instead."Leodwyn" is AS "song-joy", "Liuthwunio" or "Liuthwunia" in NG."Mahrcared" i do not understand, maybe they meant "mearh-cearu", "horse-grief", but "Marhkara" or "Marhcara", "horse-care" is fine."Uirdiks" or "Uirdrik" make no sense, if "Wyrd-ric", "fate-ruler", was intended "Wurdireik" or "Vurdireik" could be NG cognates (I don't know why JRRT sometimes used "W" and sometimes "V"... or sometimes "ia" and sometimes "ya"... i guess he only uses "v" for sharp sounds so in this case i prefer "Wurdireik".I am also not sure when to use "c" instead of "k"... JRRT sometimes replaces "k" with "c"... "Odovacar" instead of "Audawakar" for instance, no idea why) ."Vidugavia" is original JRRT from OG "Widusgaujas", "wood dweller".--Haerangil (talk) 22:10, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

THANK YOU! ---Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 17:15, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Revised MERP map

I have revised one of the color maps included with MERP #3700: Lost Realm of Cardolan, based on several MERP sources. It can be found here: Media:MERP 3700 - Lost Realm of Cardolan - Maps p.4 revised.jpg. Added labels for: Arnach (Cardolan); Bar-en-Dindol; Bywater; Cormac's hold; Dinach; Feagil; Forsaken Inn; Gamuthill; Girdley Island; Metraith; Minas Malloth; Thalion; Wood Junction (Waymoot). I may add more as needed. Note that the icon for Gamuthill does not appear on the original map - I have added it here. I plan to use this map to add and/or revise the location of some of those sites. Please review and comment. Thank you in advance. --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 05:46, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

cool! I'd thought there would still be more work to do until a fully labeled revised westlands map could be made, but still useful.--Haerangil (talk) 09:37, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Population and Urbanization in Eriador

So, to be absolutely clear: my understanding is that this wiki uses the *original* (ca. 2002) version of the essay "Population and Urbanization in Eriador", and only using the Other Minds #13 version when it does not conflict with the original. Correct? And if correct, I would request the accompanying map(s), because my electronic copies do not have maps. --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 19:56, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

to be fair, i am not sure myself...

The early version seemsed to be the version i knew first or from which 2ndary sources i knew drew from But in the end... in the big picture.I am still not considered strictly and only to that version.. --Haerangil (talk) 04:32, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

OK. If you have the map for the earlier version, could you please post it or send it to me? My copies lack the map. --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 20:20, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

I'll have to look for it on my old hard drive, but when i find it i'll post it.--Haerangil (talk) 22:55, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Overhead views of sites

I'm curious as to where you got pictures such as this: Media:Combelotro.png. Not LotRO? --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 01:12, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

from lotro googlemaps most likely.

--Haerangil (talk) 11:58, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Wikitext screwed up.

Something is wrong with the Wikitext parser; see Huggins. The spurious ")." at the beginning is definitely not present in the article wikitext. Not sure how to handle it: hope it goes away soon? Or contact Fandom? --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 18:29, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

better now?--Haerangil (talk) 19:00, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

I can't believe I missed that. 😳 --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 19:11, 1 March 2022 (UTC)