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I agree with the earlier dating, to give more time to work with. But then the date of the Doom of Mandos must be changed accordingly. I still say the whole "mess" disappears if we simply assume that the Petty-dwarves evolved *before* Battle of Palisor. Some of them can still fight in that battle (as would be logical), while others had gone ahead to Beleriand and done their business there, well before the arrival of Noldor and rising of the Sun. --[[User:Hlingler|Hlingler]] ([[User talk:Hlingler|talk]]) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 02:50, 19 October 2021 (UTC) |
I agree with the earlier dating, to give more time to work with. But then the date of the Doom of Mandos must be changed accordingly. I still say the whole "mess" disappears if we simply assume that the Petty-dwarves evolved *before* Battle of Palisor. Some of them can still fight in that battle (as would be logical), while others had gone ahead to Beleriand and done their business there, well before the arrival of Noldor and rising of the Sun. --[[User:Hlingler|Hlingler]] ([[User talk:Hlingler|talk]]) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 02:50, 19 October 2021 (UTC) |
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| + | ::when/how has the time of the doom/exile to be changed? Am i missing something?--[[User:Haerangil|Haerangil]] ([[User talk:Haerangil|talk]]) 14:49, 19 October 2021 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 14:49, 19 October 2021
i created a mess... I connected the petty dwarves backstory from MERP with the story of evil dwarves taking part in the battle of Palisor from lost tales. As nice as everything fits... it does not conject with the timeline of Nargothrond which was built before YT 1496, means the Petty dwarves must already have been in Beleriand before the rise of the sun. One possibly could argue the published silmarillion is not in harmony with myth transformed either according to which men already awoke between Y.T. 1050 and Y.T. 1100... but it still is a mess! --Haerangil (talk) 14:01, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure where you get the date YT 1496 - article Nargothrond gives a different date. All we really know is that the Petty-dwarves abandoned it before First Age 52 (the date of the founding of Nargothrond) OR, if you account for The Nature of Middle-earth, "Part Three. The World, its Lands, and its Inhabitants: VII. The Founding of Nargothrond", p. 305, then the Petty-dwarves were driven out sometime between 1.A. 52 and 1.A. 102 when Nargothrond was completed. If I understand correctly, the temporal constraints that your theories assert are:
- The Battle of Palisor must have occurred sometime significantly *after* the awakening of Men, which occurred at the first rising of the Sun - whatever date that was (is there a canonical date?); in any case, the Noldor were in Beleriand (but *not* Nargothrond) well before this date;
- The Petty-dwarves originated *after* the Battle of Palisor, since that event was their genesis - but I don't think that this *needs* to be so: they could have been "petty" before that battle;
- The Petty-dwarves abandoned Nargothrond either before 1.A. 52 or before 1.A. 102. Therefore they must have been in Beleriand somewhat before this date - which means almost certainly before the first rise of the Sun.
IMHO, the whole affair becomes much easier if you abandon the Battle of Palisor as the genesis of the Petty-dwarves. Why cannot some Petty-dwarves have lingered in the East and participated in that Battle, while others had already migrated west to Beleriand (and other locations)?
I think I've got everything right??? --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 14:53, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
- 1496 YT is the year the doom of mandos was spoken, it was stated that Nulukkizdin was created before the exile of the Noldor, so i guess 1496 is possibly the latest date.
- In MERP the Petty dwarves are not from the dwarven cities of the east but from Tumunzahar if i remember correctly. Problem is their kin-slaying, why they were exiled is a pretty minor thing if compared what other authors have come up with for tragedies the eastern dwarves were involved in... both ICE and decipher did invent far worse events dwarves were involved in, also they did invent petty dwarves in the grey mountains and Eryn vorn, again not very fitting if these were once blue mountain dwarves and not wandering exiles from further east.
The rising of the sun was either YT 1500 (history of the silmarillion), or between YT 1050/1100 (myth transformed). So far i am inclined to use myth transformed to give earliest mannish history a bit more room to breathe. It also works better for the petty dwarves to have a bit more time to evolve.--Haerangil (talk) 18:42, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
I agree with the earlier dating, to give more time to work with. But then the date of the Doom of Mandos must be changed accordingly. I still say the whole "mess" disappears if we simply assume that the Petty-dwarves evolved *before* Battle of Palisor. Some of them can still fight in that battle (as would be logical), while others had gone ahead to Beleriand and done their business there, well before the arrival of Noldor and rising of the Sun. --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 02:50, 19 October 2021 (UTC)