Since the Second Enemy did not allow his servants to call him Sauron as he considered himself the unfallen Mairon - or later Tar-Mairon - I think it's safe to assume that "Black Speech" was not the name under which he devised this language, but rather how it was referred to by Free Folk. Therefore, based on the fact that the tongue used by the evil minions in Angband was Melkian (clearly derived from Morgoth's old name, Melkor) perhaps something around the lines of "Mairian"/"Maironin" (meant to be similar to Mairon) was what the denizens and vassals of Mordor dubbed the Black Speech. What do you think? (I'm open to other name suggestions, as well, if you have any). Alex of Star Wars (talk) 12:56, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- very good question! Do languages habe names? I mean other than to distinguish themselves from other languages? Quenya does only mean "speech" and Sindarin "belonging to the sindar", they themselves called it "edhellen", "elvish". So i wouldn't wonder if the BS endonym would just be something like "words" or "talk".Taliska just means "i speak" too... bit maybe Sauron also was too proud and came up with a more fancy name. I actually also doubt anybody called Melkian melkian, Valarin valarin or Sauron ever really called himself Mairon...
That is what the High-elves called these. Strangely JRRT seems to have thought Sauron's name in BS actually was "Shakhburz" and Mordors name really "Murdur" in orcish and Barad-dur in orcish "lugburz".But we also know in their thinking and religion darkness, shadow or the color black had seemingly no negative connotation... Sauron taught the creation of the world from primordial darkness and Morgoth as the master of it. So... maybe they redefined darkness and shadow as something positive and holy and really called it "black speech" , though certainly in BS words.--Haerangil (talk) 01:28, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
IMHO. (S.) Morbeth is an incorrect application of Sindarin: "Black-word"?!? At least they could have made it plural (Merbith, "Black-words"). Certainly, any Sindarin name for the language we call "Black Speech" would have been an exonym only used by the (western) Elves and Dúnedain. In which case, a literal translation of "Black Speech" would be Morpaeth (probably lenited to Morbaeth or Morvaeth), or more loosely Morlam ("Black-language", literally "Black-tongue"). --Hlingler (talk) "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." EB Hall, "Friends of Voltaire", 1906 18:05, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- Why should it be plural? "Black word" is as good an abstractum as "written word" "holy word" and similar terms i think.Most names and terms in tolklang that incorporate the words "beth" or "Quetta" seem to be singular, not plural, it is "Athrabeth", not "Athravaeth", it is "Quettaparma", not "quettarparma".--Haerangil (talk) 21:50, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
Wordlist[]
i have some questions considering this wordlist. It does seem to confuse Black Speech and (neo)-Orcish on several occasions...
- akashuga - how does bs have a word for Hobbits if they are widely unknown as a race outside the shire?
- bûbhosh - variosly translated as either great or pig-guts or both.This is either mordir or guldur orcish however, not BS
- ghûl -seems to be am import from shadows of Mordor, BS only knows "gûl" or "ûl", which is guessed to mean wraith or servant.
- goi - is usually translated as city or town or fortress
- graug - imported from shadows of mordor, certainly orcish but not bs
- gong - gnomish, and MERP Orcish, not bs
- gûb - swine? Its usually mordor-orcish bûb or bhûb, not Gûb
- kelk - taken from primitive quenya, no kniwn bs word contains the letter e!
- kû - isengard orcish!
- oghor-hai - melkian/angband-orcish!
- shre - again problem of letter e, unattested for bs!
- tark - Tarkil is a loanword from gondorian in mirdor-orcish, it is not bs
- Ugong -merp-orcish, not bs!
- ungol - sindarin! Neither orcish nor bs!
- zigur - adunaic not bs!